85. How to Identify Spiritual Abuse, Gaslighting, and Narcissism with Cult of Christianity John Verner
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[00:00:00] Raven Scott: Welcome to the empath and the narcissist podcast. Where you regain your sparkle back after narcissistic abuse. 

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[00:03:42] Raven Scott: This week, we have a special guest John Verner, and I wanted to give you a trigger alert. This episode is not for the faint of heart, not for those who are easily triggered and identify with being a very strong[00:04:00] religious person. We talk about things that you may not wanna hear. I E Roe V. Wade. I E topics relating to how Christians influence and go on the far extreme with pro-life we talk about.

[00:04:17] How they reacted during COVID. And we talked to just a whole bunch about Bible and Jesus and all that stuff. So I just wanna give you that warning there. So don't listen to this episode. If you're highly triggered, you don't wanna hear any of that tune in to the podcast on Tuesday that I aired.

[00:04:36] and if your curiosity is peaked and you're not sure if you really feel comfortable anymore in the church and you're still going, or maybe you need to find a different church. This podcast episode is for you. So John holds a bachelor of arts in biblical exposition with an interdisciplinary in literature for Moody Bible Institute.

[00:04:57] He was one of two recipients of the MBI Homiletical jury award for outstanding preaching. In 2016, he has experienced as a youth pastor pastoral intern, academic journal editor, and guest speaker. After studying the Bible Christian history and ministry, he set his sights on confronting the problematic nature of white evangelical in the United States.

[00:05:24] In 2019. He published his first book as a first step in addressing the subtle issues of this complex system and a giant mega giant, by the way, he hosts a podcast that continues that work under the same title, the Cult of Christianity, you can grab his book at the cult of christianity.com.

[00:05:47] Find him on Instagram at the cult of Christianity. And let's get into this conversation.

[00:05:54] Hi, John. It's so good to have you here. Thank you for being here. 

[00:05:59] John Verner: Absolutely. Thank [00:06:00] you for having me. 

[00:06:02] Raven Scott: I am thrilled. And I think a month ago, I would've been really anxious and afraid to have this conversation with you, but I've done a lot of soul searching. A lot of, , things have illuminated and come to light.

[00:06:14] , even just having different guests on my podcast who are Christians, and like, I would get the pit of my stomach drop, like, uh, oh, this doesn't feel safe, but then they had a very open perspective. So it's like, okay, there are Christians out there that aren't so. Controlling and judgemental mm-hmm but that's what we're gonna get into is this cult of Christianity and how evangelical churches, especially white evangelical churches control, they contain and they convert just, just like a cult.

[00:06:46] Really? Mm-hmm and it's, it's just so extremely frustrating to watch, especially with what's going. In the news with all of the different laws being passed. And I've talked about that a little bit on the podcast. If all of you have been devoutly listening, um, it's yeah, it's just been frustrating for me, so I'm like, I cannot be silent anymore.

[00:07:07] Mm-hmm . 

[00:07:09] John Verner: Yes, definitely. It is, uh, seemingly more relevant now than ever to talk about these things. Isn't it? , it's, it can be very frustrating, especially, , for those who maybe did grow up in like a cult-like environment like evangelicalism, uh, some of this stuff makes sense and it's a very. Weird feelings.

[00:07:28] Seeing the things that you were indoctrinated were good things, , now happen and you see the bad come from them. And it's also weird if you weren't in that environment. And now you're seeing these things and you're like, how is this happening? This feels so like, uh, some of the laws that are being passed feel so outdated.

[00:07:45] Like what, where is this coming from? , so it's a, it's a very frustrating period of history right now for. It is, 

[00:07:54] Raven Scott: but I think everything's been under the rug for so long. So. I'm grateful that it's [00:08:00] coming out into the light. I mean, I hate how they're it's happening. I hate how they're fighting back and doing it.

[00:08:05] , but I think a lot more of us are seeing that this just is not okay and we need to do what we need to do to fight back and to make sure it doesn't take over our country. And we don't turn into like Handmaid's tale or something like 

[00:08:15] John Verner: that. correct. Yes. . 

[00:08:19] Raven Scott: Well, I wanna ask you about you. It's such a fascinating story because of your background and.

[00:08:27] You know, were, had, you know, earned an award. Like I shared in the bio. You were mm-hmm, a youth pastor and, um, mm-hmm yeah, just were completely in it. Like I was almost on that path myself. Mm-hmm so what, what happened there? And share us a little bit about your story. 

[00:08:42] John Verner: Yeah. What didn't happen there? Um, so, uh, yeah, my story is a little, a little strange.

[00:08:48] So I grew up, , in a very religious family and, uh, Definitely was a very skeptical child. , wasn't, wasn't, uh, buying in completely until, , much older. Uh by much older, I mean, 11 in those environments. , and so yeah, at, at 11 I finally told my dad, I was like, yeah, I, I accept Jesus. Like I'll, I'll do it.

[00:09:15] , and so I did, and throughout high school, I. Most of before high school, most of my social life was church, but then in high school I started making friends through sports, through, uh, playing music, that kind of thing, and started realizing I got along with my non-Christian friends better than my Christian friends.

[00:09:34] And that always really. Like bothered me. Like why was that? , when we supposedly had the truth and they didn't, why did they seem to be nicer people, better people? , so I figured Christianity had just gone off track a little bit. And so I was like, I would like to go be part of the change. And so I felt a call, whatever that means, I felt a call to be a pastor.

[00:09:58] And so at age [00:10:00] 17, I started looking around, , and the best program I could find that had a, uh, A undergrad preaching degree was moody Bible Institute, where I went and got my, uh, bachelor of arts and biblical exposition with a interdisciplinary in literature. , it's a mouthful to say, I have a degree in Ted talks.

[00:10:18] and yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah, that's pretty much all it is. , And so I, I did, I did all the right things. You know, I, I went to Bible college, I got married. , I, you know, was, was doing what I could do, but then it, after I graduated, I was already kind of burned out from ministry work and stuff. I was still pretty active in the church I was going to, but I was not ready to take the leap into full-time ministry.

[00:10:44] , but then I got divorced. , my whole world started kind of crumbling around me and the church, uh, mistreated me and mistreated my ex. , and this was not the first time I had been mistreated by a church. So it was kind of like the straw that had broke the camel's back. , I stopped going to church. I, I went back a few times to do some paid gigs playing music, cuz I was broke.

[00:11:06] , I was, you know, functionally homeless couch surfing, uh, for a long time, uh, started to have a flirtatious dance with alcoholism. , and really kind of can I know that too well. Yeah. I really kinda lost it all. And so. In that process. Um, fast forwarding through a lot of funny stories, I, uh, was able to procure a van and started doing van life with me and my cat and being a little more introspective and exploring what it meant to be me, what it meant to be spiritual, what this whole God thing was about.

[00:11:44] And towards the end of that journey, I started to write my book, the cult of Christianity, how churches control, contain, and convert, , that came out Christmas day of 2019. And, uh, I, uh, it did. Okay. But it nothing spectacular. , so I was [00:12:00] like, well, let me promote this with a podcast. So in early 20, 21, I decided to release my podcast, figured I'd have a couple listeners and it'd be no big deal, whatever.

[00:12:09] , but the podcast. uh, exponentially better than the book that . And I was like, oh, well, I kind of like this. I like this interview style because on my show, I do interview all sorts of different kinds of people, including, , evangelicals and, and people I call coldest. , but it's, it's all friendly. Uh, even if it, when it's tense, Um, and so it's been quite the journey for sure.

[00:12:33] I, I wouldn't have thought I would get where I am even 5, 6, 7 years ago. Uh, I don't think I'd be here, but that is how life works. Sometimes. 

[00:12:43] Raven Scott: That's true. Life is a windy road. It is not a straight path as we think it's going to be, you know, especially when you're young and trying to figure out what you're gonna do right out of high school or with guidance or without guidance from your.

[00:12:58] Yeah, that's definitely, that's really I'm and I think there's two, two points that like stuck out to me when you were sharing your story that I think resonates with consistency is number one is the burnout zone. Like that whole realm, you are always burned out. There's just like BEC I think because there's so much cover up and there's so much.

[00:13:25] Effort to make sure that everyone's like on the same page and drinking the Kool-Aid like it can get, it's just really tiring. And then, like you say that kind of mistreatment. So it could just also be like, you know, free labor, like continue to volunteer your butt off and never rest because , that's how the church runs.

[00:13:45] Mm-hmm and then yeah, they, the actual mistreatment because of what they believe. They have like this justification that they can judge others, even though Jesus directly said, do not judge others, pull the plan outta your eye [00:14:00] first mm-hmm , it's just an automatic response that they do. Why do you think that that's the case?

[00:14:07] John Verner: I. Mm, this is a great question because, uh, it could, it, it takes, it takes books, plural, and authors, plural to cover that. , but, uh, because it's very college degree. Yeah. It's very layered. It's very, , entrenched in historical sociological patterns. , it's very, , Uh, there, there's some things that are matters of opinion.

[00:14:30] There's some things that are not, uh and, uh, that there's arguments about witch's opinion and which is fact. So it gets pretty, uh, convoluted. But for me personally, , my opinion is the church hasn't ever been. Anything other than an authoritative force, it it's never, it's never been much of anything else.

[00:14:51] , people will want to point to, uh, an era where it wasn't that whether, you know, for Protestants sometimes it's the reformation, you know, with Martin Luther, like calling out corruption in the Catholic church, , for Catholics it's before the east west schism, before those Eastern Orthodox people ruined everything.

[00:15:08] Um, it. Someone 

[00:15:09] Raven Scott: else to blame, right? 

[00:15:11] John Verner: that you can always point the finger at someone. And then, you know, for some people it's like, well, it's the early church, it's the apostles. Well, there's problems there. The apostles were Jewish and the apostles also disagreed with each other and it's in the Bible that they disagreed with each other.

[00:15:26] Um, and then's 

[00:15:27] Raven Scott: a whole like how they pulled all the books together. Like that was a whole scandal in and itself. Like what you truly are reading and believing as the gospel, literally. is handpicked by a whole bunch of people, you know, men actually, not people, men mm-hmm 

[00:15:42] John Verner: yeah. And coming together, agreeing and disagreeing.

[00:15:45] And the, the, the four gospels, Matthew mark, Luke, John were all written. I mean, the earliest one was written 30 years after Jesus died. So we're talking about like a lot of potential for screwups a lot of potential for manipulation. [00:16:00] So for me, it's a very foundational issue. Um, but more. When you get away from the foundational issues and just talk about the cultural issues.

[00:16:09] The church in the us has had extraordinary exceptional privilege, , from the founding of this country till now. , and so they, they are a government, , churches are a government and when you subscribe to that authority, you are subject to their governmental control and. The difference is because it's a government that transcends time and space.

[00:16:34] You can, um, you can leave by creating your own time and space elsewhere, but they don't want you to know that. And so they have to create a pretty simple monolithic way of doing life in order for them to function. If they, if they. Get into the nuances of life too much. They won't actually be able to control people or contain people or convert others.

[00:16:58] Um, so for me, it's a, yeah. 

[00:17:00] Raven Scott: Life is too complex, 

[00:17:01] John Verner: you know? Exactly. So for me, it's a very like interwoven, , systemic thing. It's not an exception to the rule or it's not, the church has gone wrong. This is just what the church is to me. 

[00:17:12] Raven Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's at its core. You think all the way. Like all the way back centuries, you know, and it is exactly that 

[00:17:23] We'll be back. in just a moment.

[00:17:26] Hey, empaths wanted to take a break and ask if these phrases sound familiar to you. I didn't say that you're too sensitive. No one will ever believe you. 

[00:17:37] If these phrases are. Familiar and you may be dealing with a narcissist 

[00:17:42] my book empath and the narcissist. Is for you. How to overcome narcissistic abuse and recover from PTSD, codependency, gaslighting, and manipulation. This book, weaves personal stories, education and healing [00:18:00] exercises. 

[00:18:00] And as a guide for you to heal from childhood trauma, with effective exercises. And even a bonus chapter on human design. Also receive another bonus in this book. The free four ways to set powerful boundaries workshop is included in this book. If you wish to feel alive again, take back the power in your life. Then go to www dot Raven, Scott. Dot Show forward slash empath and the narcissist

[00:18:32] Now, back to the show. 

[00:18:36] Raven Scott: just tier tyrannical, controlling force that is full of greed.

[00:18:43] Yeah. And it, it actually was the center focal point of certain monarchies. And that was how they justified. Right. I am divinely appointed here by God. That itself is a manipulation and we see, oh, that's obvious, but it continued in all of the propaganda and all of the culture and everything all the way through with the founding of our nation, which mm-hmm already was founded with narcissism.

[00:19:09] And like thinking it was okay to own other, other men and women and children, and do horrific things to them that even animal rights activists now would be horrified by like right. Just horrible things. Right. And that's narcissism at its core. It's like ignoring the blatant, obvious abuse, pointing the finger, always blaming someone else and then judging others.

[00:19:30] Right. That whole gas lighting of, well, you're the one that's the sinner or you're the one. Needs to, you know, bring your issues to the Al alter cuz I'm following whatever book, you know, whatever Bible verse that they pull out and throw at you. That one drives me insane. The whole Bible verse usage, gas lighting.

[00:19:49] John Verner: Yeah, it's very common biblical gas lighting. And it's also, um, yeah, narcissism is an interesting word because narcissism is usually like an individual, but, , [00:20:00] exceptionalism is basically group narcissism. I mean, it's the same. The same principle. Um, you know, and, and I like to think about, you know, I'm sure you, you know, the, the story of narcissists, the, the tragedy, , where he, the, the, where we get the word where he, everyone was falling in love with him.

[00:20:16] There's a Greek mythology. Everyone was falling in love with him, but he wasn't interested till he comes across a pool. Then he sees his own reflection and he can't look away. And it's actually, it is tragic because he can't look away. So he. Eat, like he just stays by the pool. He doesn't sleep. He just can't stop looking at himself and he doesn't wanna drink the water that's right in front of him because it would disturb the image, , uh, the reflection he sees of himself.

[00:20:41] And so, , I, I had a job where I worked with diagnosed narcissist and was trained how to interact with them. Um, and, and I, I think when Narcissist tell us more yeah, well, I have a lot of thoughts about it. Um, granted, so my, my context I was working with, what would, it's a little problematic phrasing, but what we would call it low functioning narcissism, which basically just means, okay, if they're trying to manipulate you you'll spot it.

[00:21:06] You don't have to be a genius. You can be like, I see you trying to manipulate me. So narcissism in general, the way people describe it is a lack of empathy, , which is true. It's a literal, inability, , to be empathetic. , now that's not to say that if someone is being narcissistic or was narcissistic, they will always be narcissistic.

[00:21:24] Um, it's not a permanent stamp on who someone is. , even if they do have the disorder, , and are, are diagnosed, , And there's a slight nuance between like narcissism and sociopath. Um, sociopaths, usually it's, it's diagnosed from birth usually. Um, you can develop it unless they don't go to therapy. Yeah.

[00:21:45] You, it, it, and they don't get diagnosed. It can be developed. Um, and it can be a result of trauma. Uh, but in general, sociopath is, is like a, , chemical imbalance more or less, um, And, but, but both sociopaths and narcissists [00:22:00] can learn empathy. It's just, , they have to learn it and it's not innate.

[00:22:05] , but a hundred percent, maybe one exception, but a hundred percent of the narcissists and sociopaths I worked with were abused. Like every single one of them, um, they themselves were abused, correct? Yes. Um, it is very, very rare, , that there was an abuse and of course that's not to excuse any behavior or like, , you know, uh, action or belief or whatever they've done, but there's usually abuse.

[00:22:32] And so what, what you learn about empathy when you see narcissists and sociopaths every day when you clock in, uh, is. It's not, um, it it's, it's, it's not sensitivity. I think we confuse those words sometimes. Uh, they're both important. So I had to work on this in therapy. , I, I never related well to the word empathy, cuz I've heard that word misused and abused sometimes.

[00:23:00] And so my therapist was like, well, you're a very sensitive person. You're not necessarily an empathetic person, but you're a very sensitive person. And so sensitive is a much less, , emotionally charged word because you can be a sensitive person and then do something bad or do something good. right. Like some people are sensitive and then.

[00:23:20] Are more on the narcissistic end, where they make it all about them and yada yada, and some people are sensitive and use it as a, as a starting point for understanding others. , so that's more of like the, that personality trait, empathy actually is unique to each person. There's not like a monolithic way to be empathetic.

[00:23:38] , different people will learn it. What. And this is a terrible way to do a definition, but what empathy is is it's the opposite of apathy, where you just have no concern. And apathy is the starting point of sociopath and narcissism. It's just a lack of care. , and that lack of care can be because you were beaten down because of [00:24:00] abuse because of this, or it can be, you were a spoiled brat and never had to care about anyone else.

[00:24:06] It can look very different to different people. So the only reason I bring all that up is in the context of church, I think churches can be really narcissistic because they've never had to care for other people because they've been powerful. Or because a lot of the people who go to church are very broken, are very vulnerable, have been in really tough spots.

[00:24:26] And the church is giving them a, a way out a solution that is frankly, easier than just living your life. , and so the, the lack of empathy comes from a lack of practicing. Empathy cuz it's a practice. It's not like a, a God given gift that you can just turn on or turn off. , it, it takes a lot of work to be very empathetic and I can personally attest that when I was a Christian, I was not a very empathetic person.

[00:24:53] Um, I was borderline sociopathic tendencies with how I was treating my spouse. I was gaslighting them. Um, you know, do doing stuff like that. And it's very easy in those environments and I think that's how it happens. Um, so that's my little spiel on narcissism and empathy. I figured I love that.

[00:25:09] Talk about. 

[00:25:10] Raven Scott: I love that. No, I love that. Well, I mean, this podcast is called empaths and the narcissist, so I, we just had another guest on talking about the difference between empath and empathy.

[00:25:20] Episode 79 For more 

[00:25:23] Raven Scott: Mm. And I think it's really important to focus in on that because you get these sound bits nowadays. And you're like, oh yeah, that's me, you know?

[00:25:30] Right. Oh, that's an empath. Oh, that's empathy. But identity shopping. Yeah. Yes. And then you pick it out. You're like that, that, that, and, you know, caution to all the listeners, that's also what narcissists do they pick out what they wanna be and they identify so. Make sure you're unearthing things in your shadow and you're, you're sitting with it and you're, you're looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, wow.

[00:25:54] And sometimes the mirror is the narcissist right in front of your face. Who's mirroring [00:26:00] all of this stuff to you. Yeah. You know, um, and mirroring all of those holes that you're lacking in your emotional intelligence and self development. Mm 

[00:26:08] John Verner: yeah. Yeah. And well put yes. 

[00:26:12] Raven Scott: Yeah. It's um, I was gonna point back to this whole, like empathy with the church.

[00:26:17] Mm-hmm I think you're right. I think there is no, I don't even know if there's room for empathy because they've gotta follow all these rules. Mm. Right. Especially the very extremist. And I'm not, I'm not blanket stating all Christians. I'm, we're really focusing in on the extremely, you know, evangelicals whom you are drinking the Kool-Aid and your other Christian friends.

[00:26:40] Why are you doing that? Mm you're like, because this is what I'm supposed like, this is, you're just supposed to do it. Mm-hmm . And when you grow up and you live and you're trained and you know, you're, you're full in to the church culture. You don't, you don't, there's no time for empathy. There's no time for self-reflection cuz you have to make sure you're following the rules.

[00:27:00] You have to make sure everyone around you is following the rules so that you can. Be in the good graces of whomever you're pleasing outside of yourself. Really 

[00:27:10] John Verner: definitely. And you know, in, in most church contexts, even I would say beyond evangelicalism, but it's really pounded home in, in evangelicalism is this idea that love is obedience, which is a, a really bad lesson to learn.

[00:27:25] Um, So Toxic. It'll affect all of your relationships. Um, especially when you mix it in with something like patriarchy. One of the things I've talked about is how, um, you know, yes, I mean, women in most church contexts in the us, , not all, but most are taught to, , obey their husbands. And that creates conflict in two ways.

[00:27:49] Ew gross. That's horrible. Not a healthy starting point for a relationship and very misogynistic, but two. Yeah. If, if a, if a man and in their context, all [00:28:00] marriages are heterosexual, so that's problematic already, but in their context, Uh, the man is, is expecting to be obeyed and won't feel loved if he's not obeyed and that's its own like, uh, starting point for all sorts of trauma and misunderstandings and bad self image issues and acting out and all sorts of other bad behaviors.

[00:28:23] So the, the, the main thing, I think if we want to be clinical about it, um, it's Messiah complexes that's and. Obviously the word Messiah complex. Of course you can relate it to Christianity because it's based on a guy who claimed to be a Messiah and, uh, you know, martyrdom complex again, this whole mythology that there were all these martyrs at the beginning of Christianity, most of the accounts are not verified and most of it is just legend and not.

[00:28:50] Historical fact. Um, 

[00:28:53] Raven Scott: so, so, well, he, himself, it doesn't even matter if any of the apostles are martyred. It's like, they always just focus on Jesus being the martyr and him. Right. You know, 

[00:29:00] John Verner: rising again. Right. And he probably was crucified, you know, based on the history I've read, it seems like he was, um, but a lot of people were crucified.

[00:29:08] Yeah. But a lot of people were exactly. And you know, it. You know, the, the, the problem is with a messai complex, you automatically have to accept a rigid category of right or wrong. And you have to assume in order to be right. I must make myself less. I mean, that's also part of the doctrine. You have to be willing to die for something that's uncertain, which is also like a pretty huge demand of people.

[00:29:36] And. Anytime that happens. I mean, it means that some people are more right, and some people are wrong, so it's ranking people, , and it's creating hierarchies. And so, , empathizing with someone else becomes fake, you know, it's dishonest, you're pretending to listen, but you're never able to depart from your certainty.

[00:29:55] So you can't have empathy and, and be in that kind of [00:30:00] culture. 

[00:30:01] Raven Scott: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So many points I'm. Absolutely 100% resonating. To the last point about that fake empathy. I was gonna bring that up earlier and I'm so glad you brought it up. It's fake empathy, just so that they can find that opening spot in the conversation to prove their point, to make their Bible verse point to convince you to get back on the ship.

[00:30:25] Like don't leave the ship. This is the ship. And this ship is right, because if this ship is wrong, Then the consequences is hell essentially in, in their mind, they've just been trained and conditioned, right? It's, it's a survive or not kind of a mental scenario. It's 

[00:30:42] John Verner: almost as if it exploits, whatever real empathy could be there.

[00:30:45] Right? Like obviously, like if I believe there's heaven or hell and everyone's going to one of them, like, yes, the most loving thing I could do under that belief is try to get as many people to not suffer forever. And so that's where that Messiah complex comes in is you feel like you have to save the world.

[00:31:06] That is the feel, that is what is on your shoulders in order to be a loving person, you have to try to save the world, knowing you won't be able to do it, but trying to your hardest. So, um, you know, they're 

[00:31:20] Raven Scott: comp, but don't you think that's arrogant? Don't you think that's like, that's assuming that your belief in your mindset.

[00:31:27] Is the one and only way, which I know that's what they think, because that's what the church tells 'em, that's what the Bible tells. 'em, that's just what they believe. 

[00:31:34] John Verner: Yes. It, it, it definitely breeds arrogance. , even if it doesn't start there, eventually it becomes that, , because you know, the ability to save people from hell is intrinsically tied to your spiritual.

[00:31:48] I mean that, so, so there is no real separation of you don't feel like you're doing it for you when you're, you know, going to a third world country to take a picture with a kid, , or whatever they [00:32:00] think is love. You know, that you don't feel like you're doing anything wrong because you feel like you're doing something really important.

[00:32:06] So for them, empathy ends up meaning finding ways to trick people into thinking you love. Without loving them in a way that disobeys the dogma that you believe and all of this is you just hope they make it to heaven. I mean, that's the only way to love someone and that that will affect, you know, marriages or relationships because ultimately every conflict with your spouse doesn't matter because all that matters is that you both get into heaven.

[00:32:32] All your interactions with your family don't matter because all that matters is your kids or your parents get into heaven or your cousins or whatever it may be. all of these things end up having to fit on this grid. And at when you sit back and you're out of it, you look and you're like, go, how horrible, how could anyone believe this?

[00:32:49] You know, this is so terrible, but when you're in it, it. It feels very euphoric because your life has been simplified to the point where it makes sense, where you can just wake up and go. This is who I am. I don't have to ask hard questions. I don't have to interact with people who are different than me. I will have some resources at my disposal, at least in the us.

[00:33:11] Christians here have. Have resources that other communities do not a lot of them have routine because they weekly get to know they'll see people, which especially, you know, the, the pandemic. I mean, we all long for like some of that kind of social routine, as well as social media, making us more disconnected.

[00:33:31] Church offers a solution to a need. Most of them still went. Yeah. Most of them still went. Most of them had to think it's, I think it's terrible. And, and it almost killed my dad, but like, it it's a terrible thing, but like, That's life for them because it's, it's given them something to just have hope in is this hope of heaven.

[00:33:51] And these people around here are giving you a community. One of the hardest things, when people leave Christianity is missing that community. The problem is the [00:34:00] community was an illusion from the very beginning. It was fake. It wasn't real when the chips are down, if you stray too far from the orthodoxy or the dogma you're done, you don't count anymore.

[00:34:11] Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's all very fake. 

[00:34:16] Raven Scott: My God. So true. It's so sad. It's and, and I think that's why it's so pertinent to this podcast is because like you say, so narcissism is typically an individualistic disorder, but it has, like, I've talked about before it seeped into, it always has actually been in our systems.

[00:34:36] It's always been in our religions and our cultures. And I mean, why, why else would they justify. Finding a new, new land mm-hmm and, strategically giving sickness to the native people here taking care of the land, forcing them off their land, doing, forcing them. I mean, even up in Northern Canada, forcing the children away from their families into a Christian school that was highly abusive.

[00:35:04] Like all of this stuff, I go, how, how do you justify that? Well, all of this is under this umbrella. Of like, well, it's for the greater good for, for God, for. and it's, it's just all very narcissistic. I can't like I just get all, like, I can't, my brain starts to get all muddled. Cause I get so upset about it.

[00:35:22] I'm like don't, it's very 

[00:35:22] John Verner: upsetting. See don't you see, it's very upsetting from a historical standpoint and it's upsetting the, the willful ignorance, the gas lighting, the. The denial of, of what it's been, um, you know, and like people wonder, right. When they see a church like Westboro, who has like, you know, a terrible website name, I won't even say on air.

[00:35:41] And like, you know, it's just this horrible, like hate group, but what's crazy is they think they're loving people and that's what it gets like messy about it. And what makes it hard because the easy thing to do when you leave a cult is say, That [00:36:00] cult is terrible. They're brainwashing people, and they should all, you know, just go F themselves.

[00:36:05] And like, , you know, like this is the worst thing ever. And that's, that's, that's usually part of the process. I, I do plenty of that on my own. , but I think that's like, well, there's still human. And one of the, the hardest lessons I learned, but the biggest lesson I learned when I worked with diagnosed narcissist and sociopaths was.

[00:36:26] They were human and it stretched my empathy. Like, can I empathize with someone who has none? And, , the answer is yes. Um, and it's difficult and you can't do it to a point where it wrecks you too much. , which I did. , you know, , I worked 60 hours. You just have boundaries with your empathy. Yeah. When you, you know, I worked 60 hours.

[00:36:46] I, I joke that like, I mean, my marriage had a million problems, but my job didn't help any of them. Um, And, uh, yeah, so. One thing to note, I guess, is narcissists don't want other people to suffer. They just don't care that they're suffering or they don't see that they're suffering. It's like a blind spot.

[00:37:09] Yeah. It's not, you know, it's really easy to go. Narcissists were like our villains, right? Like like they're scheming or something. Yeah. Most of the time that's not true. It's it's actually just like, again, A series of events. That's led them to a mental state where they it's a blind spot. They can't even see it.

[00:37:29] So it's very difficult to talk to someone like that. And it's not for everyone, but I think it is important that some people who are able, who are maybe less emotionally invested can get to those people because most narcissists won't go to therapy. Um, they're on their own. They'll have to be convinced. I had to be convinced when I was, uh, you know, in a narcissistic mindset.

[00:37:52] I was very resistant to therapy. Um, and so, you know, it takes some people caring about people who. [00:38:00] It's really loving the unlovable is what I call it. I mean, it's, it's, they're not fun to be around. , but unfortunately, and we see this politically with polarization right now. If you stop talking to the other side, uh, both sides get worse, they don't get better.

[00:38:16] , and that, I think that's true with narcissism and empathy too, but there is a way to do it. And you can't, you kind of have to, I I'm allowed to cuss on this podcast, right? Yes. Yes. Take no shit. You know, you have to love, but take no shit. And, and that's, that's a lot of what I think interacting with narcissists and sociopaths looks like especially Christian ones, which is what I do the most is saying, look, I'm not, I'm not expecting you to hate me.

[00:38:40] I'm expecting you to not know you're hating me. , and that's kind of an easier position to start. 

[00:38:49] Raven Scott: Yeah, that's a good point. Absolutely. But then also you get the, um, you get the reverse, right? We talk a lot about like gray rocking and going, no contact with narcissists, just for you on mental health. Yeah.

[00:39:01] So you can heal first, like you said, you have to be strong with boundaries. , But then like what I've experienced in my life with the, you know, Christian narcissist specifically, my personal family is I will put up a boundary and then it'll be radio silence, because they don't know how to relate to me now with this new boundary.

[00:39:20] And they take it personal, absolutely offended by it. Yeah. You're and there's no further conversation. Like I don't, I don't know how to open up a conversation with them now. Like I'm not gonna put myself in that toxic scenario where they're, they're sitting. You know, stewing or 

[00:39:34] John Verner: right. You know, whatever, you definitely have to get to a point where you understand it's not your responsibility.

[00:39:38] It's just like, it's it to talk to them necessarily. Um, it's more a, , a willingness if they, if they're able to stay inbound, so to speak. , yeah. Yeah, because, uh, yeah, 

[00:39:51] Raven Scott: I was just gonna say like that compassion. I was gonna say, like, have, have, do the work within yourself to have the compassion. Whenever your paths [00:40:00] cross again, or they reach out and they're in a kind of a better state and they've forgotten about their personal offense.

[00:40:06] yeah. And then you're like, 

[00:40:07] John Verner: yeah, well, and I, I take an approach. Um, I don't talk about my family stuff, uh, on podcast too often just cuz I. Outer respect for them. I'm like, I don't need to drag you through the mud too much. , they're, they're good people for the most part. So , , I, I try to try to nice of you.

[00:40:24] Yeah. I try to be nice about it, but I will say like one of the things I think that has helped us be a functional family that most of us talk to each other is, , we, we know what to not talk. And, and with family that can be very huge is just knowing what not to talk about. , and everyone has to be on board.

[00:40:42] You know, there, if there's one person who just keeps bringing something up, sometimes you have to say, Hey, like, No, no stop bringing that up. , but, uh, I'm very thankful. My parents raised three kids who are all very independently minded who, , you know, are able to be very three to very different people.

[00:40:59] I'm very lucky in that regard. , and, and still function, you know, , person to person it's harder with relationships. I, I think, you know, most of the time, if there's any kind of narcissism. Abuse in a, in a, in a romantic relationship, usually it's gonna have to end with a no contact. , just cause the emotions are too high to think clearly.

[00:41:21] , to, to be something can't produce health, you know, if it's, uh, if it's only produced unhealth so, , you know, you can't live in a dream world where something will get patched up when it won't. , Yeah. Well, and that's 

[00:41:34] Raven Scott: kind of normal even without a narcissist. Like when you break up with someone yeah.

[00:41:37] You don't like, usually you don't continue to be friends with them cuz that's kind of a blurry line and it becomes awkward for, let's say whomever you're with in the future. So yeah, yeah. With a 

[00:41:47] John Verner: narcissist it'll it'll vary person to person, but absolutely like in general you shouldn't have to, but, but all that goes back to what you were saying with this idea of just.

[00:41:55] You know, you can't put the burden on yourself to like change someone else. Like that's, [00:42:00] that's not ever gonna happen. Like it's not on you to change someone else. , and that's 

[00:42:04] Raven Scott: really what they're trying to do. Right. And so when you do it on your side of the fence, you're stooping to their level. And like back to the whole, this nation is divided.

[00:42:14] Yeah. At the, you know, it's good that we're not trying to bring each other over to each other's fence, like our side of the fence. And we're just not talking about it, but at the same time, It's just. It's just at the 

[00:42:25] John Verner: core. Well, we don't know how to communicate right now. Right? 

[00:42:30] , because boundaries have been pushed for so long, it it's it's to the point where it's kind of. We have to have no contact with certain kinds of ideologies, which I totally understand. I just think if you are able and you're, you're the kind of person who can have a conversation, like, you know, I like to think I'm the kind of person who could have a conversation with a white nationalist, but I could never be friends with one.

[00:42:52] And like, that's kind of like a. A weird way to think about it. , but those are the kind of conversations we're gonna have to start having , because that's where we're getting and it's not getting better by ignoring white nationalism. , and yeah, so, so it's very difficult, but I think, you know, I call Christianity a cult for a living and, uh, you know, I.

[00:43:14] I used to get more hate mail than I do now, because at first people were shocked and, you know, whatever, and that they're like, wait, you Studi to be a pastor. How could you, blah, blah, blah. Um, right. There's less and less, but I'm the one actually reaching to the other side and getting shut down more often.

[00:43:31] Um, and, and the reason I'm bothering to reach out and talk about this, cuz trust me, there's days where I'm like, I'm so sick of talking about Christianity. I left years ago. It would be nice to just pretend it doesn't exist. But the reason I do is because it's affecting culture in ways that now everyone is seeing.

[00:43:48] Um, and you know, I was able to see back in 2015. pre-Trump era. I could see like the stage being set for what was gonna happen. , and yeah, again, my, I just have [00:44:00] to recognize where I was flawed when I was a Christian and understand that I never wanted anyone to suffer. That was ne even at my most bigoted, at my most misogynist, at my most horrible ideology, indoctrination mindset.

[00:44:16] At all of that, I wasn't that I wanted people to suffer. And I have to remember that when I'm interacting with people who cause suffering it's, it's not the intents. It's just, they don't see it. It's a blind spot and you have to talk them through it. Yeah. 

[00:44:32] Raven Scott: Yeah. Like you said, the story about narcissist is they're just staring at their idea yeah.

[00:44:37] In the pond and not turning their head to see how it's affecting other people. Right. Or like, I always say. I'm not gonna watch the news. I'm gonna stick with my, , beliefs about Christianity and not see how it's affecting other people. You know, mm-hmm, the marginalized. Yeah. The, the, the weak, the people who Jesus actually talked to mm-hmm and cared about the irony about that's like they don't care about those people anymore.

[00:45:00] They only care about their own. So they're sticking their head in the sand. and it's, yeah, it is important to be able to have some of those conversations. Otherwise their heads will always be stuck in the sand. Yeah. And you're right. They don't want people to suffer. That's why they believe what they believe.

[00:45:15] Right. But they just don't see that. They're, let's say like, you know, a woman who strength the Koolaid, she's obeying, her husband, she's highly involved in the church. She's pro life. She has a huge blind spot, right. For how detrimental that can be to a 10 year old. Who's been accosted mm-hmm without consent to, you know, uh, a immigrant who has no more space or money for children, like all these different things.

[00:45:41] Like they're just like, well, but that's okay. Mm-hmm because that's, you know, God says murder, so I'm just gonna stick with it. 

[00:45:46] John Verner: Right. Which that one is especially fascinating because of how pro-life movement is so young. And so clearly a, , Like a red herring for, uh, segregation proponents in the sixties.

[00:45:58] Like it's, it's [00:46:00] well documented and, and anyone can Google and find it out pretty quickly exactly how that went down. , but yes. So when you, this is something people ask me about a lot, is this idea of, so here's Jesus and here's Christians. What happened? , yeah, I think many things happened. , but I think one of the biggest things to understand about Jesus.

[00:46:20] Is, I don't think personally, this is, this is where we're in opinion territory. Um, right. I don't think Jesus claimed to be God, I don't actually think that was on the table until after he died. . When you make a good human being, God, bad things happen. cause when you, when you say any person is perfect, uh, you make them the standard.

[00:46:49] Well, Jesus, a Jewish carpenter, uh, who wanted to be a radical apocalyptic Messiah in Judaism. When you make him the standard and you have a bunch of white people who are not familiar. Judaism who are not familiar with middle Eastern culture who are not familiar with most basic historical facts based on just a terrible education system in the us.

[00:47:13] , you're gonna run into a lot of problems. and so it's ironically 

[00:47:18] Raven Scott: horrified. Yeah. 

[00:47:18] John Verner: So I, I like Jesus as a character, you know, I, I do. I think, I think all the things that people say about him about caring for the oppressed. Is valid. And I, I think there's like a lot of obviously he inspired something.

[00:47:33] So I think there was an indefinable quality about Jesus. , that's very appealing and I think it makes sense that he is the most famous human in all of history. It, it, it totally makes sense. , but when it feels like a disconnect, um, I th I think it's honestly, because there was a disconnect between him and his apostles, , Pretty obviously.

[00:47:54] So, uh, if you, if you read the Bible, , there 

[00:47:57] Raven Scott: was, yeah, it's very much in there. Like they [00:48:00] argued and he was like, chill out guys, chill out, stops up, you know, like putting them in their place. But, well, he argued, they were always miscon. 

[00:48:05] John Verner: He argued with his religious leaders and then he argued with the people following him.

[00:48:10] I mean, he, he was an argumentative fellow. And like, and so I don't, I don't know how you can make. UN a palatable order system out of a chaotic human. I, I there's, there's just too much disconnect. I don't think Jesus was for organized religion in any kind of way. , 

[00:48:30] Raven Scott: no, he hated the Pharisees yeah, he was 

[00:48:32] John Verner: absolutely.

[00:48:33] Yeah. He hated laws. He hated rules. I mean like there there's there. Yeah. And, and that's, that's. Is reported about him. I mean, who's to say, uh, everything that's reported about him is even accurate, but, , yeah, they can made it up 

[00:48:45] Raven Scott: just to make their own form of religion. They wanted out of his movement.

[00:48:49] John Verner: Right? Exactly. Out of the energy he had garnered. Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot there, but I, I think when you fast forward all the way, what draws Christian to Christianity is the redemption story that no matter how broken you are, you can be made whole again. I mean, what a great message, right? Like that is the part.

[00:49:05] That speaks to everyone that hooks you in, , because that message is important. That redemption arc message is very, very important message and we're missing that message, uh, in broader society in a lot of ways. So, so it's very appealing and people. Do get hooked in that way. , if you know, a lot of Christians, the, the movement based on what I'm reading now seems to be less people who are indoctrinated are attaching to Christianity.

[00:49:32] More people are coming to Christianity later in life, , because they do feel alone and isolated and they're offering community. And the hope that you can be made whole again after you're broken. , and no one else is really selling that right now. And so, uh, you know, The reason that's important to bring up is just understand that Christians aren't going to Christianity to become nationalists.

[00:49:54] They're not going to Christianity to become bigots. That's not the motivating factors they [00:50:00] already 

[00:50:00] Raven Scott: were. There's just, you know, magnifying stuff. 

[00:50:02] John Verner: Well there, yes, that's, that's one, one era. It's like, how can I be a good person and have these bad views? Here's the cover. That's certainly one type of person, but there's also another type that just kind of goes with the flow because, because that story is so, , Unbreakably important to who they are to their identity.

[00:50:21] To know that I am a Christian, so I will be loved someday because they don't believe they can be loved yet. And like that that's sad and it, and it's something we need to do better as, as the ones out here trying to get people out of the cult. Of telling them you're worth love now. I mean, one of the jokes I've said on my podcast before is it's crazy that Christianity was hying up that someday I will be forgiven for Jesus.

[00:50:44] And then you go to one therapy session and you're like, oh, this guy does it too. Like, it, it it's the, the, the whole essence of their message is here. Now you don't have to like subscribe and, and give lifelong dedication and servitude to, uh, an ambiguous, uncertain ideology. You can. Look at the people around you have empathy for them and learn together and no, it won't be perfect.

[00:51:11] It'll get ugly and uncomfortable and horrible stories will ensue, but they happen anyways. So you might as well not be in a cult while you're trying to find love. 

[00:51:24] Raven Scott: Yeah. That's just like, Fog on top of other fog, right? You've got your ancestral trauma. You've got your conditioning. You've got, now you've got this whole religious ideology.

[00:51:33] It's like layer after layer. And I think when you said that this, and it goes back to that mesic, like, , Messiah complex. Yeah. Like thank you. Yes. The Messiah complex is like this. This has finally has my answer and that's the whole danger of a cult or even a narcissist going to someone who is your saver.

[00:51:54] Is going to lead you down a road of heartbreak. Yeah. It's not going to be the [00:52:00] end all be all, you know, everything that you need is within you already. Mm-hmm and that's always what I talk about. So yeah, you may need to talk to a therapist, a coach to figure it out, to uncover some of those layers, the fog, but.

[00:52:13] Relying on a religion, like you said, that holds you to this lifelong servitude, just for the hope that heaven is someday going to happen. Like heaven is now, heaven is here. Your experience you have now mm-hmm is what you get it's present. 

[00:52:27] John Verner: Yeah. And hell is here too. You know, like I, I get that, like, it's, it's sucks.

[00:52:32] Like I, I, I get the, the euphoria of Christianity. I miss it. Sometimes I miss playing worship music and worshiping this, you know, Image in my head that I had construed based on theological things I had studied. I miss it. It was fun. It felt good. It, you know, it, I, I used to cry a lot more Cathartically when I was a Christian and now I cry in very UN cathartic ways.

[00:52:56] So, you know, like I get, I get missing it and I get wanting it. Um, And a lot of times this can come off as condescending because of how the programming of Christianity like, oh, I miss you, you know, I get it. You just do this to feel good. It's like, no, I understand. It's deep. I understand it's identity. I understand.

[00:53:16] There's like a, I under, I have Christian friends who I'm like, y'all are great people. Like, it's cool. You're chill. I like you. We can talk and hang out. But you're part of a cults. Like, and the reason I choose that word, it was very, , thought through and intentional. Because when I confront Christians and call it a cult, you know, they'll go, well, what's a cult or what's a Christian.

[00:53:37] And, you know, try to, uh, make me define myself to death. But, um, what, what I, gaslighting. Yeah. But what I try to do with that word is just say, Well, what do you, what is a cult to you? You know, turn it back a little bit. And it would be like, well, what images conjure in your mind? And they tell me, and I'm like, well, how is that different from what you believe?

[00:53:57] You know, te tell me the differences. [00:54:00] Um, because what I've found is most Christians actually don't argue the point. They go that the, what they're forced to say at the end of the day is. I'm just part of the right cult. I mean, that's essentially what they have to say. They, they don't really have a way to say they're not one.

[00:54:17] Um, and I think that's really important to highlight because if they know that then they have freedom to, to choose, make that choice. Okay. You choose to be part of that cult. That's good. But we have to have that discussion first, because if we have discussions about religion or like spirituality, things will get really muddy really quickly.

[00:54:38] We need to keep the conversation focused on the actual hierarchies that churches have created, the actual abuse that has happened and the material, , means we've seen exploited the material, , money in, in churches accounts, the tax exemptions, the, the legal developments, sociological developments, the history of Christianity.

[00:54:57] Those are the things we actually have to talk about. We can't. Talking in terms of ideals and theology and like trying to find God, , or else we will just be talking in circles all day. Hmm. 

[00:55:11] Raven Scott: Yeah. Uh, so many circles. Yeah. It's it's because everyone's so drank this Kool-Aid so much, they've been taught how to talk about it, to defend themselves and they latch their ego and identity to it.

[00:55:27] it's of course, if you go down that road, you're just gonna be gaslit and you're gonna get confused and turned in circles and maybe you're listening and kind of confused and maybe turned in circles and wonder. Is, you know, is my church a cult? And you would say, well, no, cuz they're not like we're not Mormon.

[00:55:43] Right. I remember my dad used to always say that growing up, I'm not Mormon. It's like, I'm actually, our ancestors were Mormon. And I just learned that like last year but he adamantly denied it because Mormonism is different than Christianity and it's not ironically, it's not really, it's still just a [00:56:00] different type of cult.

[00:56:01] Yeah. So you may be thinking. , you know, we, we believe in Jesus, all this stuff, and it's like, it's just your journey to think about. Yeah. We're just here talking to you to kind of open your eyes. Just like if we're talking to you, maybe also you're in a narcissistic, , relationship and all you can focus right now is your survival mode and figuring out if this person's healthy for you or not.

[00:56:20] Mm-hmm, all of those things we talked about apply to that too, because it's just a bigger system. 

[00:56:25] John Verner: Absolutely. It's amplified. Usually what I'll say to someone who's who. Kind of in that stuck state, you know, cuz , if you've listened this far and you're disarmed at all, you know, um, thanks for listening.

[00:56:37] You know, like I, I understand it takes, it takes a lot to like, let go of some of that stuff, but if you've gotten that far, the, the only recommendation I have is I'm like, just, just try, stop going to church for a month. Just see what happens, you know, and if you miss it and you wanna go back, that's fine.

[00:56:51] Go ahead back, but just see what happened. Just if you've never done that in your life, or at least in your Christian life of just not going to church with no explanation, see how many people check up on you and what the checkups are like if they do. Yeah. Uh, you know, see how your men, how manipulative they are, see how your mental health is on Sunday.

[00:57:10] See if you don't dread. Getting up and, you know, waking up because that was a feeling I had almost my entire Christian life was dreading Sunday morning. See if that goes away, you know, those are the kind of things you can just explore for yourself. I'm never gonna tell someone, you have to stop being a Christian.

[00:57:25] That's not my business, that's your business. But if you're curious about the effects, a cult like Christianity can have on you, that, that, that's just a simple experiment you can do for your own personal wanderings 

[00:57:37] Raven Scott: that's a perfect experiment. Thank you for offering that to all of the listeners. I think that's important.

[00:57:43] Yeah. Yeah. You will soon see, and you're gonna be doing it as an experiment. You're not gonna be doing it as like a rebel cuz then right. You'll feel pulled back in. You're just like, I'm just 

[00:57:52] John Verner: curious. Yeah. Just see what happens. Cause nothing might, you might be fine that they might go, oh, that's okay. I need to take time off from church too.

[00:57:58] You might have a cool church [00:58:00] like that. See what happens. Maybe they're like that. 

[00:58:03] Raven Scott: Yeah, that's a really good litmus test, right? Yeah. And, and anything, any social interaction you're in? Yeah. yeah. Just, Hey, I just need to take a break from our relationship. Yeah. Hey, I need to take a break from going to 

[00:58:13] John Verner: church.

[00:58:13] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's really, shouldn't be a big deal. , and if it becomes a big deal, that's worth exploring. 

[00:58:20] Raven Scott: So one final question I want to ask you is. So many people say like, when you do leave the church or take a break, what would you say to a Christian who would quote unquote, say like there are loads of people who make mistakes in the church, they'll say to you or people are imperfect or we're all sinners.

[00:58:40] And that's why we are all there in the first place. And that's not really a reason to walk away. 

[00:58:47] John Verner: So it's very common for. Christians who are close to someone who has left their little cult of Christianity, , to try to figure out what their spirituality is and finagle their way back in, you know, they'll make excuses like, well, the church is not a perfect place.

[00:59:05] People aren't imperfect, you know, there's no don't walk away from Jesus just because you've been hurt. And honestly, to that, I say, , The hurt was the people, but so is the church. It's all the people, it's all the system. It's all the cult. There is nothing beyond what I'm seeing. That's what I would say.

[00:59:25] But if there is something beyond, then that's something beyond will understand why I left and side with me. And if it wouldn't side with me, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. Absolutely. 

[00:59:38] Raven Scott: Well, thank you so much, John, for being here. It was absolute pleasure. , I appreciate you so much. 

[00:59:45] John Verner: Well, thank you for having me.

[00:59:46] I really appreciate it. So thank you so much. Yeah, 

[00:59:50] Raven Scott: absolutely.

[00:59:51] Don't forget that I do also offer coaching sessions for you specifically on recovering and healing from narcissistic abuse. [01:00:00] I'm taking one on one coaching clients. I have four spots left. So contact me through the link in the show notes to grab your coaching sessions today. 

[01:00:09] Raven Scott: And remember everybody always keep your unique light shining. 

[01:00:14] Madhvi is helping people release emotional baggage break negative patterns, and find root causes with the emotional and body code. She believes the healing possibilities of the body code and emotion code are limitless. And I can highly attest to this while working with her, myself.

[01:00:35] I highly recommend connecting with Madhvi Mathur reach out to her in the show notes today and get your free emotion code inquiry consultation today.

[01:00:48] Visit www.madhvi.ca that's M a D HVI dot C. A And the link will be in the show notes.